Okay, now that I’ve finally got things set up properly, time to get back to business.
So last time I expanded my list by one to include “fag”. I realize good arguments can be made for other words, but it’s a pain in the ass searching these words across multiple sites and I’m drawing the line at 8 search terms just to preserve my sanity. Also, for this post I’m only looking at the first page of search results for each site. Partly because reading all the quotes to find what I wanted to use is time-consuming, and partly because reading the results that came up gets a little soul-destroying when you get to the third day.
The interesting thing that happens when you start reading the excerpt text for these terms is that you realize they fall into two groups: terms used exclusively as slurs for the purpose of shaming and/or silencing and terms with alternative usages. So let’s look at the two groups separately.
Terms with alternative usages: whore, cunt, and rape
Now before I go any further, I want to just say for the record that just because I’m making a distinction in usage does not mean that I support the use of these words in any way in a gaming context. As I said previously, I think the fact that there are 150,000-odd instances of the word rape on Destructoid alone is horrendous. However, as it has been pointed out by many, looking at numbers alone doesn’t provide a clear enough picture. So…
“Whore” is interesting, since it’s commonly used to denote someone who obsessively collects or goes after certain things, often self-directed. For example – on the first page of results for “whore” on Joystiq, I come up with the following phrases: two instances of “loot whore”, one instance of “gamer score whore”, two instances of “achievement whore”, and three instances of “graphics whore”. That leaves only two out of the first ten results being an actual traditional usage of “whore”:
“I thought she was a whore with a heart of gold and instead she turned out to be a whore with a regular old whore heart.” [comment]
“Production company ready to whore out Castlevania” [feature headline]
Of course, usage varies by site. Certainly other gaming sites aren’t as “moderate” with their use of the word whore. Some of the lowlights include:
If you’ve ever had your dick sucked then you’ve paid a whore to suck it. You might not have given her cash directly but she still got paid [IGN]
When i was reading Hasley’s journal i suspected that….she must have been a whore [IGN]
YTMND Thursday: Kerrigan is a whore, edition [Destructoid]
Were supposed to be talking about whores here [Destructoid]
all i know is it is about a whore who is your mom [Team Liquid]
TeamLiquid: Where all the women are attention whores, all the men are trolls [Team Liquid]
and #1 sure as shit aint moping around ‘awwwwwww shucks, everyone knows i slept with a whore‘. [Team Liquid]
I know I keep going on and on about how Kasumi is a giant whore, but I can’t help it, because she’s a giant whore. The latest proof? [Kotaku]
And of course, it bears mentioning that a few usages of the word “whore” were in reference to characters in games who are actual prostitutes. (I’ll save the rant about game companies’ obsessions with putting brothels in their games for another day…)
Moving on, the usages of “cunt” and “rape” aren’t nearly as complex. “Rape” has, unfortunately, become popular as a term describing a shameful loss by a huge margin. This is especially true in StarCraft II, where it’s not uncommon for a major victory is described as a “rape” of the loser, and where there are actual tactics with “rape” in the name like: “sugarbear’s Thor Rape technique” and “ZvP Protoss, Ramp Block, Turtle and rape”.
More than half of the instances of “rape” that come up on the first page for Destructoid, TL, Kotaku, Joystiq, and IGN are actually discussions of current events, like the the horrific coverage of that poor girl in Texas, or about the perpetual controversy surrounding rape games like RapeLay. And you can find thoughtful pieces about the use of the word “rape” in the gaming community, like here on Team Liquid and here on WoW Insider (hosted on Joystiq). Only two out of fifty results, but they’re there!
But sometimes, as Freud said, a cigar is just a cigar. Destructoid, and Jim Sterling especially, has a bad habit of making rape jokes about, ya know, actual rape. Like using “Games cause rape psychologist’s book gets raped” as the title of a feature, or saying that Kirby told him to go rape a bunch of vaginas. So when it comes to making tasteless jokes about “rape rape”, Jim Sterling gets a gold star. (Or something.)
The least complex word is “cunt”. It gets several hits as being a shooter by the creator of Super Meat Boy, but other than that it’s used pretty exclusively as an insult. However, the reason I put it in the first category is because it seems to be directed as men just as much as women. See:
George Steinbrenner, devoted father, owner, and beloved cunt. [IGN]
Although Az is being a complete cunt like normal he does bring up a good point [IGN]
You know who one of the biggest cunts on the site is? Some guy named Jack of All trades. [Destructoid]
Fuck off destructoid. I refuse to pay you any respect or visit your site until you get rid of that cunt Jim Sterling [Destructoid]
Seriously, that guy is a cunt. [Joystiq]
Oh, gamers. Now I remember why I’m often ashamed to admit that I’m one of you to my non-gaming peers.
100% awful: slut, fat slut/whore, feminazi, feminist/feminazi bitch, fag
(Okay, I’m going to be a bit more abbreviated here because this post is getting long, and I’m getting depressed. The fact that “fat slut/whore” and “feminist/feminazi bitch” are 100% awful should surprise no one, so I’m going to skip those. I invite you to Google gaming sites for these terms and cry if you feel like doing extra credit.)
Slut only ever means one thing, and – depressingly – gamers have no problem slinging around “slut” like it’s going out of style:
[IGN] lol this slut on okcupid … [IGN] Cassandra was a slut … [IGN] Holy ****, Alison Brie was a slut in college … [Destructoid] Kaidan is such a slut. … [Destructoid] the developers decided to increase her slut factor by ten … [Team Liquid] is it ok to like a slut? … [Team Liquid] being a stud is good but being a slut is bad … [Kotaku] without having to be a virtual slut … [Joystiq] I’m pretty sure Suzu is the guild slut … [Joystiq] if she wants to slut it out it’s really her problem … [Joystiq] Unlike that Hannah Montana slut …
…you get the picture, I’m sure.
Feminazi is a bit more mixed. There is at least some discussion of the term – especially considering the recent twitter dustup involving Jim Sterling. However, the vast majority of uses are either to tar feminism or to slam any woman who dares to stand up for herself:
[IGN] If a woman decides to be a man-hating-femi-Nazi … [IGN] Whichever Femi-nazi wrote that needs to go back to grade school … [IGN] What a feminazi thing to say … [Team Liquid] /me waits for some feminazi to make a retort … [Team Liquid] Your feminazi ways are clearly evident … [Team Liquid] That’s probably why you came off as feminazi or something … [Kotaku] God I hate feminazi’s … [Kotaku] I’m not a misogynist but these feminazi double standards are ridiculous … [Joystiq] I’m willing to bet some femi-nazi mother who didn’t do her research … [Joystiq] Thats something you Feminazi’s fail to understand … [Joystiq] Also, most of the feminazi’s I’ve seen are usually tiny prissy little things. They’re like the yippy rat dogs of the human world …
While “feminazi” doesn’t get hurled around as often as “slut”, in every instance the intent is clear: “tits or gtfo, bitches”. (Because clearly, any woman who objects to SHOW ME UR TITS BITCH is an ugly feminazi who hates men. /eyeroll)
Lastly, fag is interesting because it seems to be the most… well… immature in it’s usage. A good half of the results boil down to [Person] IS A FAG LOL or UR A FAG LOL. Often this devolves into a fight of NO UR THE FAG NO YOU NO YOOOOOUUUUU… which reminds me why I don’t encounter “fag” often in my gaming life since I avoid any place on the internet where illiteracy is predominant.
In closing
So what can we conclude from this collection of filth? Well, as I said with my previous post – ultimately not a whole lot. However, I think the fact that only a bare handful of the hits for these search terms were critiques of the terms themselves says something about how acceptable it is for gamers to use hate speech, especially misogynist hate speech without real fear of contradiction or reprisal from the gaming community as a whole. Even the alternate usages of words like “whore” and “cunt” are still awful because they support the stereotype that comes with those words.
Gamers like to get up in arms about how mainstream society judges gaming as a deviant hobby, but it seems to me that if gamers don’t want to be seen as deviants, then maybe they should consider just why it is that the gaming community is so tolerant of hate speech. It certainly doesn’t help any argument that we’re not as socially maladjusted as the stereotype.
Go Make Me a Sandwich 
By way of conversation starter, do you really think what you’re seeing here, in the gaming community, is radically different from mainstream society? I mean (and yes, this is going to be pretty US-centric), Republicans now want the IRS to audit abortions, editors at major newspapers are worried about giving the eighteen men who raped an 11 year old girl a “fair and balanced” portrayal in their reporting, and popular sitcoms in family-friendly timeslots (looking at you Community) make rape-jokes a running weekly gag. These internet communities are always going to be representative of the worst-of-worst, but gaming is pretty mainstream, and so hating women (and other marginalized people). Maybe this is more a reflecting pool of what’s wrong with our entire culture?
I’m not saying that mainstream society as a whole isn’t sexist, and I would agree that Republican policies are pretty misogynist. However, when it comes to hate speech like this, I think that the average non-gamer would be shocked to hear words like “whore”, “cunt”, and “fag” used with the frequency that they are used by many gamers.
I dunno, I guess we’d have to define “average”. Gamers, particularly video game enthusiasts, seem pretty average these days. And being that this is the internet and everything, stuff tends to get dialed up to 11. Take my experiences on online dating sites as a point of comparison; I’m really careful about how I vet people – I don’t talk to men who are radically younger than me, and I keep to those who espouse generally liberal values – and yet the relative anonymity of the internet combined with the fact I’m a member of a highly fetishized community has exposed me to rancid, soul-crushing crap on a frequent and recurring basis. In fact, the amount of hate speech I encounter on online dating sites is wildly disproportionate to the civil discourse I engage in (something like 9:1 maybe? I should really keep track but sadly I don’t have your love of excel sheets). Want to know what sick stuff is rattling around in the heads of your boyfriend or your brother, stick ’em in a chatroom with me for an hour (I promise not to use leading questions!).
All of which is a long way of saying that my personal experiences with internet-based misogyny (and transmisogyny) have left me with a somewhat more dubious regard for the “average” person than you seem to have.
Which is not to say I think going after the gaming community is pointless. On the contrary, I think it’s exactly the sort of thing that needs to be done. It’s an intimate enough structure that activism can be focused and ultimately make an impact. And I think GMMAS proves that. But disgusted as I am by the numbers you produced here, I’m not really shocked…it pretty much dovetails with my experiences elsewhere.
Oh, and I know I left you with very little room to respond to that, bringing in the trans thing and playing the “personal experience” card. I’m not trying to win a point or anything. I guess I just think that the goal shouldn’t be to get the gaming community to “average”, but somewhere better still.
>…editors at major newspapers are worried about giving the eighteen men who raped an 11 year old girl a “fair and balanced” portrayal in their reporting,…
Well, I’m guessing they don’t want there to be any possibility of them getting acquitted by claiming that their media coverage resulted in a biased jury.
It kind of seems like at least one of the uses of the word slut ([Team Liquid] being a stud is good but being a slut is bad) is discussing the double standard, which seems like that would be a good thing, at least in this context.
It’s articles like this that make me wish the analysis guys from OKCupid were standard throughout the internet. I would love to see that level of self-examination in more places.
“If you’ve ever had your dick sucked then you’ve paid a whore to suck it. You might not have given her cash directly but she still got paid [IGN]”
I found this to be pretty disgusting and wondered how it escaped moderation. So, I Googled up the link. It appears that IGN has a forum -dedicated- to such filth(Teh Vestibule). How does such a mainstream site get away with that?
…I don’t really see anything wrong with the ‘slut’ snips. Maybe it’s me being predisposed because I associate mostly with promiscuous people?
Also, I’m kinda sad that Morrigan made the new site header because she’s one of the least gratuitous female characters, in that her fuckability serves an in-game purpose. She’s a succbubus, so looking fuckable is part of her character, and succubus isn’t out of place because she’s from a fighting series starring famous monsters. The only thing I can think of that’s out of place is her being the character that always represents the series in crossovers, but we’ve had more Darkstalkers characters in the Vs. series recently, and she’s the main character from Darkstalkers anyway, so I find that acceptable. (As to why there are so many Darkstalkers characters leaking into everything else, blame Capcom management for not letting the devs, who fucking love Darkstalkers, make a new Darkstalkers game.)
You don’t see anything wrong with shaming women for having open sexuality or seeking to degrade them by implying they are openly sexual (and therefore ‘deviant’) by calling them sluts? That’s exactly what that word means and always has meant.
Also, I wonder if I am the only person getting rather tired of the ‘succubus’ line. Pigeonholing women into ‘sexy’ monsters happens more than you think and just because Morrigan is that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable (her character could’ve just as easily /not/ been that. Its’ not as if they had no choice. And really, if you said it ‘serves a purpose’ for every instance of every woman with crotch floss would that make those okay?). It’s still just centering women around sex sex sex. Over and over and over again.
Ergh, sorry this is for clarification’s sake. The succubus line of characters* As in the archetype (femme fatale basically, ugh)
Okay, see, from where I am, ‘slut’ is basically a less pretentious way to say ‘promiscuous’. I’m not sure what the hell an ‘open’ sexuality is. Could you elaborate? The closest I’ve heard of are open relationships, but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here.
And yeah, fair enough, Morrigan didn’t have to be a succubus. But, assuming you’re making a game about monsters fighting each other, what other female monsters can you think of that are as well known? (bearing in mind that a good chunk of them are just as sexual?)
Also: “It’s still just centering women around sex sex sex.”
As Wikipedia sums it:
“Morrigan is a brash 300-year-old succubus who wants nothing more than to visit the human world and have a good time, often at the expense of the men she seduces, and completely ignores her duty as future ruler of the Makai Realm; this annoys her father, Belial, and gets her two servants, Lucien and Mudo into heaps of trouble. Eventually she hears of Demitri’s restoration, and goes to her father to warn him, only to find that he is in no position to fight. For the first time, she takes on the responsibility that she has often put aside, and returns to the human world to fight Demitri, and prove herself worthy of the Makai Realm and the power that Belial sealed away many years ago.”
Her character-arc literally the opposite of what you just said.
I think I can help with this one
OK so what I’m taking from the context is that open here means a woman is not restricted in her sexuality. Given the nature of this blog I’m going to assume it means more than: She’s not restricted to boring positions. I’m going to guess it means that and also She’s not restricted to the types of sexual partners that non-deviant (normal) people consider ok. So you might just be overthinking it. She’s open sexually meaning she’s willing to engage sexually with say men and women and whatever the variations are that get listed over and over.
Lilith was saying it’s not ok to call a woman a slut just because she’s not shy about sex and is willing to have sex with you and your friend be they boy or girl.
Morrigan is a great character, sure. But I call bullshit on the idea that her walking around with her ta-tas hanging out is solely for “character reasons”. The reason she’s dressed like that is to appeal to male gamers. The “character reasons” are window dressing.
Well of course she’s supposed to appeal to male gamers. A succubus is supposed to seduce men in total, and some of them are gamers after all. If Capcom had invented the concept of ‘succubus,’ I would have rolled my eyes and said “how convenient,” (in fact, I have that same reaction to Felicia. I’d be totally fine with her on the header. Fur doesn’t work that way!) but they didn’t. The succubus is a well-known mythological monster that seduces men. That means she has to appear sexy to the audience. (in fact, Capcom originally had her and Felicia’s personalities swapped, but came to realize that a an asexual succubus defeats the point) So, as much as I would’ve loved her to have been something out of Franken Fran (read that, it’s good) that’s not really functional.
I think we’re coming at this from different angles, so I want to test something: Suppose that Morrigan didn’t show any cleavage, but was still hypersexual, as befitting a succubus. (Like, I don’t know, maybe Hellraiser sexy instead of regular sexy) Would that be acceptable?
The whole “succubus” thing is just an excuse, Sam! Why are sooooo many female video game characters “succubi” or “femme fatales”? There’s so goddamn many of them that the term doesn’t fucking mean anything anymore. It’s just a fucking justification to have games full of women who walk around mostly naked. Jesus.
Whether or not Morrigan has a “story purpose” is irrelevent because in the end the reason she is the way she is, is because there are plenty of people(such as myself) who like to play as sexy women in their fighters. Besides, she’s said before that she’s not trying to take Morrigan away, she just wants there to be much more characters that are like Hilde from SC4.
I didn’t realize she had to be female-designated specific monster to be a monster O.o. She really could’ve been any old monster, just… female sex. So I don’t see that as necessary at all. And, y’know, there’s a reason all the female-specific monsters are sexual.. because women have been sexually objectified for quite a long time now. See now we’re back to ‘you picked a monster that ‘coincidentally’ revolves around sex for your prominent female character.. yay’. It gets a bit tiring to keep encountering, Sam.
I forgot to answer the slut thing. Basically, it’s a lot to go into in just one post so instead I would suggest seeking out information on slut-shaming. It’s definitely not a word used to refer to promiscuous women in any kind of neutral way in that context, and that’s often the context it’s in.
Also, do note that when I say ‘centering’ I more mean’ prioritizing’. It gets tiring when it feels like the majority women characters only get in these games if they also are cool with being portrayed as sex objects too (then /maybe/ you can get a cool story and all that other jazz). It’s not really about Morrigan for me, it’s about the bigger problem.
It’s not really you Sam, it’s that others have used the ‘sexy female archetype’ as an excuse before, making them Succubus’ (seriously, so many games where there are demons and the most prominent female ones are succubi.. ugh) and ‘Femme Fatalas’ to just go on making women sex ads for men. I’m not saying all the sex-focused characters need to go, but in context there’s way way way too many hanging around.
Well, not just any old monster. You’d be surprised how many of those things are sex-specific.
But okay, I was simply saying that the succubus thing has such recognition that leaving a succubus out of a game about monster crossovers would be like leaving out a werewolf. I do wish we’d see an Incubus though, if only in an ending or something.
And yes, Capcom did have a couple non-sexed monsters be female: Felicia, and Q-Bee. Seeing as how they’re just as sexual, but with none of the mythology to make it fit (like, why the hell does the hopping corpse have a cleavage window?) I like Morrigan more.
I”m generally fine with sex stuff if it makes sense, but I suppose that people who deal with stuff all the time have the right to be a bit more sensitive.
And, as to your second post, if there’s anything that justifies a woman being prioritized sexually, that would probably be ‘being a monster that feeds on sex.’
“It gets tiring when it feels like the majority women characters only get in these games if they also are cool with being portrayed as sex objects too”
Sex Object? Well, Capcom would’ve had be be a bit more proactive, but gamers were a bit squeamish on that. That’s Morrigan’s Eternal Slumber super. It only lasted one game (MvC1) before people got freaked out an complained. So, it was okay to fans for a game to have a sex monster, but you can’t show her actually have sex on screen. Despite Demitri’s Midnight Bliss attack getting it’s own fansite. Le sigh.
“(seriously, so many games where there are demons and the most prominent female ones are succubi.. ugh)”
If it’s any consolation, Morrigan’s first game was 1994, and succubi weren’t run into the ground back then. One might say the whole thing happened entirely because Morrigan is so awesome. (I submit that even those unattracted to Morrigan cannot, by virtue of her jet-powered bat wings, deny that she is awesome)
“It’s definitely not a word used to refer to promiscuous women in any kind of neutral way in that context, and that’s often the context it’s in.”
Well, that’s a shame, because ‘promiscuous’ is cumbersome, and ‘slut’ is a really fun word to say.
“I’m not saying all the sex-focused characters need to go, but in context there’s way way way too many hanging around.”
And I was just saying that Morrigan is one of the better sex-focused characters, so I don’t see why to pick her out of all of videogame women for one of the ten header characters of this site. That’s my only real complaint.
(I was originally going to ask why there are three times more Soul Calibur characters than Dead or Alive characters, but then I realized that Dead or Alive admitted it had tits as main priority on day one, while Soul Calibur literally distorted it’s characters to achieve that level of fan service.)
@Hazmat Sam
I get that you like Morrigan a lot and that you’re upset that she’s in the header. Believe I completely understand how you feel, but there’s no need to defend her. Just get over it and drop the issue.
The Morrigan thing is really just the starter here. It’s kind of clued me in to the fact that the ideologies here are against overtly sexualized things, rather than gratuitously overtly sexualized things. (which is a slight problem, because everything humans create is sexualized in some way.)
But you are right. Considering the track record of most games, those stances are usually identical, so it’s probably not a big issue for the time being.
This response confuses me, it seems you took something from my post that I didn’t even say. Granted this is hardly an ideal method of communication, so misinterpretation is too unusual.
*isn’t too unusual
I am not trying to be trolly but are you really so isolated from modern society that you think whore and cunt would cause offence and shock to most adults ?
Is this a north america thing cos I gotta tell you in the UK those words are far from uncommon outside of the gaming community.
I know you dont have the time or desire but I’d really like to see a comparision of those words usage compared to other cuss and curse words.
as an aside I thought you approved of Yuna from X-2 yet im pretty sure thats her ass i can see next to this reply box (and morrigan disapproves of your dissaproval).
I am not trying to be trolly but are you really so isolated from modern society that you think whore and cunt would cause offence and shock to most adults ?
Is this a north america thing cos I gotta tell you in the UK those words are far from uncommon outside of the gaming community.
I don’t think the former would be that shocking, but the latter is in my experience treated as far more offensive than even f*** and its various forms. I’ve never actually heard it spoken aloud, even by people who use “f****ing” any time they want to emphasize anything.
And, yeah, it’s probably a North America thing.
This is indeed a North American thing. Thanks to my British friends I am aware that “cunt” isn’t a huge deal in the UK, but in the States (or Canada) it’s pretty much one of the most offensive and vile things you can call a woman. My mother will say “fuck” and she still always says “the c word”.
Cultural differences, thats where things like this start to breakdown a lil I suppose.
Same with words like ‘fag*’ which whilst we brits know what it means to you colonial types, to us its a cigarrete (hilarious “Im going outside for a puff on a fag” scenario ensues O_o)..local equivelant would be ‘Poof’ I guess.
Cunt is still offensive here but is more often directed at men than women in my experience..sort of a harder edged version of calling some a douchebag.
Either way your reslts are still a little disturbing, for the vast usage of ‘rape**’ more than anything.
*which seems to be a really, really hateful word if my belief of its origin is right…faggots of wood used to speed up the burning of people being burnt at the stake.
**I know its common as a short hand for overwhelming loss, I use it..my partner uses it, amongst gamers not because we think rape is hilarious but because we know its a ‘bad thing’ I imagine thats another topic though (a’la slut). However I get the awful feeling thats not the context of its use in your results 😦
I think that a faggot was originally just a term for a mid-size bundle of wood. For example, it’s used in that way early in the Lord of The Rings, where each member of the group gathers one before continuing.
ok so I’m new and forgive me if you’ve gone over this sort of thing before but I think i sorta understand what you did to get these results. Correct me if I’m missing something.
My question primarily is: doesn’t this sort of search discriminate against communities that aren’t prone to such unnecessarily inflammatory language. Hm.. I guess I have to assume you were doing searching on gaming sites and you selected the biggest sites you could find (and a few i’ve never heard of). If I’m part of a community of gamers who for the most part keep a civil tongue online, would not your searching skew fewer results. Admittedly I can’t conceive of a gaming community that upon reaching a ‘critical mass’ doesn’t engage in a certain level of this type of speech but I’m certain there are plenty of communities out there that aren’t near the level of what you would get at IGN/Kotaku/or Destructoid.
I’m not saying muggings aren’t a problem in Liberty City, Florida but going to the 10 most active areas and clocking how fast you get mugged in each one hardly seems like the fairest way to assess the problem.
You could test your community by opening a thread about sexism in games and among gamers. Wait until it’s 5 pages long and link it so we can see what’s happening.
Unless you’re suggesting wundergeek go to every single gaming community out there, which would be pretty much impossible, I’m pretty sure the next best thing would be to gauge the most popular of the sites. I certainly don’t see it as unfair, I see it as practical.
If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it, if your community doesn’t engage in such things then okay, but the fact is there are plenty of them that do engage in them. Maybe you should go out and talk to those communities who do and get them to tone it down.
fair enough I suppose. I just get a little disheartened when I read stuff that implies EVERY gaming community is like this and I don’t think they are. The popular ones, sure. The majority, maybe, but there are places out in the internet that are fairly large, and the language doesn’t casually reach the “If you’ve ever had your dick sucked then you’ve paid a whore to suck it.” level every day all the time for no reason.
ugh.. to clarify
*’stuff’ in this case might actually more accurately refer to a different blog entry on a different site that’s topically similar. Technically nothing in this entry I read or inferred was intended to apply to gaming communities completely. Just gaming communities in general.
Oh, sure. I’m not saying that such communities don’t exist. I know that I have managed to find a local community of sensible, sane, not terrible people to game with. However, I think such places are the exception, rather than the norm.
cool. well that’s all I was trying to get across i guess.
carry on.
Re: the terms with alternative uses, there seems to be a really strong tendency in gamer circles to use sexual metaphors for everything without really thinking about what the words really mean. Enjoyment is referred to using sexual terms, consumerism is conflated with prostitution (despite most gamers being unapologetic consumers), and in-game dominance becomes “rape.”
I’m honestly not sure how much any of that has to do with their feelings about women, though, because dysphemistic comparisons of this sort tend to ignore everything about the original word apart from the core concept used to make the comparison (which, for “whore” seems to be “degrades self for material gain” and for “rape” seems to be “leave feeling helpless and humiliated”). It’s definitely vulgar and hurtful, but it seems to be something of a different sort than the obviously-misogynistic words listed later in the post. (Unfortunately, the types of people who talk like that aren’t much more likely than the obvious misogynists to stop when asked — there’s an annoyingly high number of people on the internet who act like a request to avoid vulgar language is somehow impinging on their human rights)
“While “feminazi” doesn’t get hurled around as often as “slut”, in every instance the intent is clear: “tits or gtfo, bitches”.”
So what you’re saying is that feminists are beyond all criticism and never wrong about anything, therefore all objections towards feminists are simply misogyny.
“…how acceptable it is for gamers to use hate speech…”
You are not even talking about hate speech.
“Even the alternate usages of words like “whore” and “cunt” are still awful because they support the stereotype that comes with those words.”
What stereotypes? Prostitutes and sluts exist. In large numbers. They are real. They are not “stereotypes.”
That’s not at all what I’m saying at all! Feminism is still guilty of an awful lot of transphobia, racism, and ableism. Being a feminist doesn’t magically make you 100% correct all the time.
However, there’s a difference between objecting to a particular feminist stance and COMPARING FEMINISTS TO NAZIS.
And I am very much talking about hate speech. What else can you call it when there are gamers who will call every female gamer who dares invade their Sanctum of Dudeliness a dirty whore, or demand that she show them their tits, or say they’re going to rape her / her mother/ her dog? Seriously. Go read Fat, Ugly, or Slutty and then tell me that words like “whore” and “cunt” aren’t hate speech when used by gamers.
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how a comparison is made between feminism and nazism. The semantic connection is not enough, since nobody ever suggests that grammar nazis are plotting a genocide. Trying to establish a connection between feminazism and actual nazism is just a clever ploy to draw attention away from the real reasons why the term feminazi exists. A total red herring.
You assert that merely using certain words, regardless of context, is hate speech. But it isn’t.
I have only seen a handful of instances where the usage would be understandable…mainly those who really like the idea of putting men in camps for slave labor and breeding cos the wimminz ruled the world better.
As I’ve said misandry is the word they should use but most people dont realise that their could be a male version of mysogny.
This might be because my blog trawling has led me into some sersiouly disturbing rad-fem/sepratist/all hetrosex is rape blogs. I keep having to remind myself that the penny arcade ‘internet dickwad theory’ (and yes I know it applies to them too) applies to bloggers and not just online gamers.
as for fat/ugly/slutty…yes those words are used in that context as hate speech but when I get named as a sniper/rocket whore the context is different as is camping cunt. I tend to play as Mirasiel with female avatars if i can and dont use voice comms if that makes any difference.
Off-Topic:
I also think there’s a fraction of people, who could know such a word exists (because they paid attention in English class once or twice), but would never use it. It would be like saying white discrimination. In theory it’s perfectly plausible but in practice you’d never be able to pull off that argument as a white person.
Hate is hate and is ugly regardless of your gender, sexual preferences, skin color, religious belief or political leanings or those of recipient of your hate.
The fact that hateful people may have some goals that align with those of ‘good’ people does not mean we ought turn a blind eye to them.
My appologies however for dragging this conversation off topic with my own recent distastes 🙂
I find it really hard to believe you’re not a troll.
Oh, hey, it’s the same damn troll again. With Strawman arguments to knock down too! Oh and the /brilliant/ arguments of ‘nuh uh’ (Sorry, I know you love using that hate speech but it’s still hate speech, no matter how many times you say nuh uh) and ‘nazi’s isn’t like saying.. /nazi’s/’. Let’s say, in some bizarro world, comparing someone to a Nazi was.. somehow not comparing them to a Nazi ala Godwin’s Law.. you’re still being anti-semitic as you minimalize and trivialize the crimes of some incredibly vile people who killed millions… by attaching the word ‘Nazi’ to anything.
Nothing is like a Nazi except a Nazi, and if it’s so ‘semantic’ then just stop using the damn word if it really doesn’t mean anything as you claim. Clearly it means something to the people objecting to you about it.
“You’re a troll” is a thought-terminating cliche that means absolutely nothing. Try again.
“Sorry, I know you love using that hate speech.”
What hate speech?
“You’re still being anti-semitic as you minimalize and trivialize the crimes of some incredibly vile people who killed millions”
All the king’s men and all the king’s horses cannot answer this question: why are grammar nazis not actually compared to nazis? Gee, could it be because despite the semantic connection grammar nazis have nothing at all to do with actual nazism? And it’s the same thing with feminazi.
Your sole argument is mindlessly repeating that feminazi is a synonym for nazi even though that isn’t true and you cannot demonstrate it to be true. And again, it is a red herring meant to draw attention away from the real issues.
Actually it means you’re a troll. Your arguments are full of holes and sometimes they literally amount to ‘nuh uh’, and you use strawmen like ‘oh so I guess no one can criticize feminism now!’ just because someone told you Feminazi is over the line. You just want to hold onto your slurs and are getting mad because people are calling them out as slurs.
You’re a bigot, just a cowardly kind who wants to hide behind semantics. My sole argument is the only one needed. Nazi means Nazi, it never meant anything else. Don’t blame me for your apparent illiteracy. Also, /you/ are one of the real issues here x.x
“Actually it means you’re a troll.”
Which means nothing.
“You’re a bigot.”
This also means nothing.
You are basically incapable of saying anything meaningful or substantial.
So, in short. ‘Nuh uh’, ‘Nuh uh’, ‘Nuh uh’. And not a bigot? Please. I mean WTF, you even used sluts label up there without any touch of irony, even though that’s a slur against women. Of course, those women probably aren’t ‘pure’ enough to you. Whatever though, trollface. Once again, just because you say ‘this doesn’t mean anything’ doesn’t make it so. You have to actually back it up, with words and logic and things like that. You seem to be lacking in these things, which only makes more apparent your pseudo-intellectual facade. I also like how you didn’t reply to the strawman arguments part either, even though it was really obvious you engaged in one pretty quickly.
But I did forget something in my last post. Forgive me, but I think this should be pointed out. Re: Mindlessly repeating. You mean like you’ve been ‘mindlessly repeating’ the whole ‘omg nazi has no connection to grammar nazi and feminazi and there’s no comparison even though they use the same damn words’. Apparently it’s only ‘mindless’ repeating when someone other than you does it eh? Hypocrisy doesn’t look good on you, but with you being so pompous you probably don’t think the same rules apply to you because you’re so assured that /you’re/ right so it’s okay when you do it.
Bigot, like troll, is a thought-terminating cliche that means nothing. Or actually, the word itself is meant to be an “argument” that categorically nullifies everything the person has said — somehow. In other words, “nuh uh.”
“I mean WTF, you even used sluts label up there without any touch of irony, even though that’s a slur against women.”
It’s a slur against sluts. Unless, of course, you’re saying all women are sluts.
“Of course, those women probably aren’t ‘pure’ enough to you.”
Do men have some sort of moral obligation to date sluts?
“Once again, just because you say ‘this doesn’t mean anything’ doesn’t make it so. You have to actually back it up, with words and logic and things like that.”
Have you backed up your usage of the words? No, of course you haven’t (however, please don’t bother to try. You’ve embarrased yourself enough as it is).
“You mean like you’ve been ‘mindlessly repeating’ the whole ‘omg nazi has no connection to grammar nazi and feminazi and there’s no comparison even though they use the same damn words’.”
I’ve demonstrated that there is no real connection, and nobody has managed to demonstrate otherwise. There’s the difference.
Hey, don’t steal my nuh uh material. Get your own =P
“Bigot, like troll, is a thought-terminating cliche that means nothing. Or actually, the word itself is meant to be an “argument” that categorically nullifies everything the person has said — somehow. ”
That.. sounds like something a bigot would say because they see themselves as so /Above/ that word despite engaging in obvious bigotry as you have done in this thread (Or maybe they feel their kind of bigotry is ‘justified’). Yeah, you should tell every single anti-oppressive group that bigot means nothing. I’m sure they’ll jump to agree with you, trollface.
“It’s a slur against sluts. Unless, of course, you’re saying all women are sluts.”
Mm, straw. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a bit of projection too on your part. Slut is a label that acts as a slur against women and as a way to police them because you feel have ‘too open’ of sexuality, aka aren’t pure enough and controlled for you. Also.. I never brought up dating, I was more commenting on your sanctimonious ‘moral’ view of women. There’s that Nice Guy ™ breaking through again.
Re: “Have you done that!” (The answer is yes, yes I have, you have not. Lrn2readn00b). Also, you’ve switched to ‘I know you are but what am I’ now? Really?
“I’ve demonstrated that there is no real connection, and nobody has managed to demonstrate otherwise. There’s the difference.”
So well that literally the only conversation has literally been ‘Nazi doesn’t mean Nazi’, ‘Actually, Nazi does mean Nazi, it’s right there in the word. Can’t you read?’. You should stop treating it like ‘it’s so very obvious’ when clearly you have to go through poorly formed rationalizations as to why it’s /totally/ not like that. You’ve mostly just been involved in largely evading arguments and not really addressing them. You compare feminists to Nazi’s (Reductio Ad Hitlerum), you obviously are strongly against any kind of equality for women, proven further by your application of the slut slur (which people largely use to police and control women and their sexuality). All you have demonstrated here is that you seem like a woman-hater, if one that is not self-aware in the least. Maybe you’re called a misogynist because, hey, you say misogynist things.. not because people just can’t handle your truth-y truth criticism.
Unfortunately you seem far too wrapped up in.. yourself. So I’m just going to leave you to yourself. Enjoy your slurs, don’t act too shocked when you continue to get called out on them as you deserve.
“That.. sounds like something a bigot would say.”
What delightfully circular reasoning.
“Slut is a label that acts as a slur against women…”
So you’re saying all women are sluts. That’s not very nice.
“…and as a way to police them because you feel have ‘too open’ of sexuality, aka aren’t pure enough and controlled for you.”
As has been established, uncontrolled female sexuality causes societal problems.
“There’s that Nice Guy ™ breaking through again.”
“Nice guy” is another thought-terminating cliche that doesn’t mean anything.
“The answer is yes, yes I have.”
This answer is incorrect.
“So well that literally the only conversation has literally been ‘Nazi doesn’t mean Nazi’.”
Feminazi does not mean nazi.
“You’ve mostly just been involved in largely evading arguments and not really addressing them.”
Lol.
“You compare feminists to Nazi’s (Reductio Ad Hitlerum).”
Really? Where did I do that?
“You obviously are strongly against any kind of equality for women”
Based on what?
“All you have demonstrated here is that you seem like a woman-hater, if one that is not self-aware in the least.”
Based on what?
Y’know, let’s give this one more go, because what the hell. First, the only thing thought-terminating here is you. Not to mention you rely on cliches to prop up your archaic and tired arguments.
Refer to my comment above on subject of ‘sluts’, do I really need to put up a neon sign for you? Seeing as you’re the only one blaming ‘sluts’ aka ‘uncontrolled women’s sexuality’ for the ills of society here… let’s not talk about niceness, kay woman-hater? Just because you’re a repressed freak doesn’t mean women are ‘sluts’ for not being like you. You’re the only one here using that slur, get off your sanctimonious high horse. Stop attacking the strawman, because you can’t beat that either, fallacious one.
And ‘Based On What?’, he asks. Yeah, how could I come to the conclusion that you’re clearly against equality for women. Oh, wait. And I Quote you from Google Results – misogynist language used on major gaming sites: “This naturally raises the question of whether women’s rights should actually be scaled back. There’s a reason why children aren’t treated equal to adults.”
So, basically, what are you saying here? Women are like children and men are the adults? Women don’t ‘deserve’ equality unless they act subservient enough for you? ‘Feminism’ isn’t approved by you so /all/ women need to have their rights ‘scaled back’ because apparently women are a monolithic group to you that when you imagine one has done wrong clearly they all do wrong? See, that’s the problem with you. Note that no feminists here has suggested men unilaterally have their rights ‘scaled back’ due to their interaction with you. It’s been you that came to the conclusion of stripping away freedoms because of a group you disagree with. Not So Different from those apparent Feminazis huh?
You think you have a right to women, their lives and the right to control them. You feel entitled to these things, you blame your own inadequacies and failures on women because it’s the easy way out. I’ll ask an honest question. If you can’t answer, that’s proof enough. How are you /not/ a misogynist? Don’t evade, don’t rely on pedantic tactics, just answer the question.
An Onymous
But what is a slut? Someone who has sex with too many people (or too many varieties of people)? Most commonly a woman who has sex with too many people. The issue being raised here is that “too many” is too general. How many partners is too many? The issue they are raising is that you can’t say any number fairly. You don’t have a right to say to (predominantly) a woman “You can have sex with X people and any more makes you a slut”
Since no number is appropriate the word is completely invalidated making it a slur to use it. Using the word slut means you’re saying this woman is having too much sex. Which is again not your right to judge.
No, I actually do have a right to judge people.
You do not have the right to besmirch others for making choices different to you.
Even if you feel the need to judge would it not be best to use an equal measure for everyone, this is rarely the case in my experience.
Either way there is already a discussion on this blog over the use of such language, perhaps you’d be best served to take a look there.
———-
The fact that you maintain there is not contextual difference between grammar nazi* and feminazi however makes me come down on the troll side of this spat.
*i can easily swap this to pedantic fucker and achieve the same result but what can I use in place of feminazi that would serve the same purpose….
“You do not have the right to besmirch others for making choices different to you.”
Oh? Then by all means, contact the police. I’m sure they’ll issue an international arrest warrant right away.
“The fact that you maintain there is not contextual difference between grammar nazi* and feminazi however makes me come down on the troll side of this spat.”
There is no difference and nobody has demonstrated otherwise.
“But what can I use in place of feminazi that would serve the same purpose….”
Misandrist fucker.
“Oh? Then by all means, contact the police. I’m sure they’ll issue an international arrest warrant right away.”
Defamation of character, granted you have to prove harm but hey.
I already addressed the rest your post but I cant help but notice you skate right over my idea of equal judgement, perchance does that not fit your world view?
Wow, what the hell is going on here? Is there something about WordPress that makes people suddenly show their asses everywhere?
Newsflash: slut is a misogynistic word used to judge women, not a “cute” way of saying promiscuous. We JUST discussed this, I swear.
Newsflash: no one cares how awesome and non-misogynistic your gaming community is when we’re talking about the terrible and incredibly bigoted mainstream gaming world, just like no one cares how awesome and sensitive your male friends are when we’re talking about men who rape women.
Newsflash: there is no way to argue that you aren’t comparing something to Nazis when “Nazi” is RIGHT THERE IN THE WORD YOU ARE USING (corollary: “Grammar Nazi” is also an inappropriate term that decent people avoid using, happy to clear that up). “Nazi” is way number one for assholes to silence their opponents, see every political discussion ever. Why do you think Godwin’s Law exists?
yeesh.
Sorry. I wasn’t trying to be a dick. I was just trying to ask a question. I wasn’t trying to fight with anyone or troll the topic.
I was a little bit harsh with you, sorry. Bad day.
It’s just something that happens a lot in discussions like this–when women talk about sexism (or people of color talk about racism, etc.), someone inevitably pops up to say “Well, all men (or white people, etc.) aren’t like that!” and acts supremely offended until someone takes the time to soothe them with assurances that no, of course not, it’s only bad people who are sexist/racist/etc, and no one you know could possibly be a bad person! In the end, it contributes absolutely nothing of value to the conversation, the popper-up walks away reassured of the status quo, and the women (or people of color, etc.) walk away frustrated and exhausted.
“Slut is a misogynistic word used to judge women.”
Oh no, somebody is judging women. This is madness. Misogynist madness.
“There is no way to argue that you aren’t comparing something to Nazis when “Nazi” is RIGHT THERE IN THE WORD YOU ARE USING.”
There is a way when you don’t incorrectly believe that semantics is God. Again, this nonsense is just a red herring meant to draw attention away from the real issues.
““Nazi” is way number one for assholes to silence their opponents.”
Well this is pretty rich coming from a feminist.
“Oh no, somebody is judging women. This is madness. Misogynist madness.”
Using misognyistic lanuage is misogynistic…what is hard to grasp about this?
———————-
As I said above there is at least 1 AU of difference between the intent of ‘grammar nazi’ and ‘feminazi’ , I mean its not rocket surgery sir.
Semantics is the study of what signs mean. Words are signs. Do you not care about what words mean? IF you don’t, why should we care what your words mean?
And no, no one here is against judging people for their actions. It’s just that, as Voltaire said “It is an infantile superstition of the human spirit that virginity would be thought a virtue.” So any attempt to enforce celibacy is also infantile and worthy of condemnation. Demonizing promiscuity is essentially crab mentality, and as such, is absolutely vulgar. Why should we be in favour of it?
“Semantics is the study of what signs mean.”
Except people here are going so overboard that they don’t care what a word really means.
“As Voltaire said “It is an infantile superstition of the human spirit that virginity would be thought a virtue.” So any attempt to enforce celibacy is also infantile and worthy of condemnation.”
“Voltaire said so” is not an argument.
“Demonizing promiscuity is essentially crab mentality, and as such, is absolutely vulgar.”
Demonizing promiscuity is perfectly natural and there are many good reasons for it.
“Demonizing promiscuity is perfectly natural and there are many good reasons for it.”
Such as…..
Come on man at least try.
I already covered them elsewhere and won’t do so again.
But it’s pretty disturbing that someone would not understand right away what kind of problems promiscuity causes. Well, such is life in the modern world…
Not in this thread you havent.
So kindly enlighten me as to the demonic problems of unrestrained female sexuality*.
Take into account the availabilty of contraceptives.
*Male too if you’re up for it.
Even if I could be bothered, your retort would just be some variation of “But unrestricted female autonomy is the highest possible moral good in the universe! Besides, women can’t do anything wrong anyway!”
Those are some mighty big assumptions you are making about me, given your lack of knowledge.
You know what they say about making assumptions dont you…
I’ll give you some info to go on, I believe that individual freedom and autonomy go hand in hand and that to deny one is to deny the other, which means I must accept that people will do things that I either dissapprove of ethically or morally.
Everyone makes assumptions. Some assumptions are just more reasonable than others. Like mine, for example (since you just proved it correct).
I see you are still unable to actually answer the question.
Or indeed any question really, kind of sad.
You did not ask a question.
Okay guys, at this point I’d just like to remind everyone not to feed the trolls. It just makes them happy, you upset, and wastes a lot of your time that could have been spent doing something meaningful.
As we all know, anyone who questions feminism must be a troll. Since feminism is the perfect, ultimate ideology, it stands to reason that nobody could be seriously opposed to it.
FYI you’re an imbecile.
Sometimes you have to give people the benefit of the doubt WG.
That way I can honestly say “Well I tried but it seems you are just a fuckwit, carry on” in good faith.
Anon, “Well I tried but it seems you are just a fuckwit, carry on” .
I’m all for giving people the benefit of the doubt! I’m not about to insist that everyone needs to agree with me to be part of a discussion. However, when someone spams several threads with essentially the same comments that read straight out of anti-feminist bingo and derailing for dummies, I don’t think people should feel obligated to waste mental bandwidth. I’m happy to have discussions with people who are actually interested in hearing what I have to say. But I don’t think Mr. An Onymous is really interested in anything said by anyone but themselves.
I fully concur now having seen him doing the same shit everywhere, perhaps I have a higher threshold simply because I remember being the dumb ass asking stupid questions that are all to easily construed or dismissed as deliberate trolling.
I’ve never actually seen the joy in trolling, I mean its sad enough that I waste this amount of time on the internet doing ‘this’ +browsing + shooting imaginary spaceships without being a coward and picking fights with people who are unable to hit me back, as would undoubtedly happen in the big open chat room.
“I’m not about to insist that everyone needs to agree with me to be part of a discussion.”
That’s exactly what you’re insisting.
“However, when someone spams several threads with essentially the same comments that read straight out of anti-feminist bingo and derailing for dummies…”
Derailing for dummies, lol. In a nutshell the whole page just means “feminists are inevitably correct about everything and their opponents are inevitably wrong about everything.” It’s not even internally or logically consistent, the same argument or method is appropriate when used by a feminist but inappropriate when used by anyone they don’t like. Anyone who takes that list is seriously and uses it as a guide is retarded.
“I’m happy to have discussions with people who are actually interested in hearing what I have to say.”
Translation: I’m happy to have discussions with people who agree with me. The assumption here is that anyone who’s interested in what you have to say is also necessarily in agreement, or disagrees only slightly in a very polite and submissive fashion.
An Onymous: Being an idiot on GMMAS since March 17, 2011.
Sorry, but someone had to. 😀
Ho ho, you are so witty! It seems like all of my posts have now been thoroughly refuted!
(Hint: you are also retarded.)
I thought about trying to refute your argument logically, but the other people that have tried have gotten nothing but “I’m right, you’re wrong, lol.”. I saw no point in repeating their mistake, and, honestly, figured that it might get through to you if things were brought to a level where you would have a chance (If a small one) of understanding it.
“Translation: I’m happy to have discussions with people who agree with me. The assumption here is that anyone who’s interested in what you have to say is also necessarily in agreement”
Probably at least a quarter of my posts here disagree with Wundergeek in some way. She’s done nothing to censor me, or to indicate that my opinion is unwelcome. Nor have any of the other readers.
“or disagrees only slightly in a very polite and submissive fashion.”
Politeness isn’t a sign of submission. It’s a sign that you’re not a jerk.
I don’t censor people. I just ignore them and move on with my life.
If you’re willing to do yet another follow-up, you might want to look at r/starcraft, just to compare to r/gaming and the official SC forums.
Hey love your site Wundergeek but might i suggest you also check the N4G.com site. Its full of misogynistic idiots. Take this piece in particular http://n4g.com/news/728144/female-characters-in-games-big-boobs-and-skimpy-outfits/com
It’s horrible the comments i read from these people. It makes me so angry sumtimes. Like regular girls aren’t good enough and that in order to get attention we need to expose our female body parts. Its just hard being a gamer whose a female sumtimes 😦
That is indeed pretty awful. /sigh
Gods dammit.
This is why we cant have nice things anymore 😦
Katana, are you the same katana that I see posting in the comment section?
I read the article though and my inner comic geek came out Wolverine (and thus x-23’s) strength and power comes from the combo of adamantine skeleton and rapid healing factor*, if I recall rightly the comic book run where she went up against wolverine she beat the crap out of him by being faster, tougher and smarter than him. Felt it under cut the authors point a bit about fems in games like that needing to be more muscular even though i agree in general, X-23 wasn’t the best example to focus on 🙂
*Also being a 100 years + , amoral (depends on the writer) killing machine with ninja training helps I guess.
Wundergeek: Honestly, i visit that site alot for gaming news. And that’s just one of the nice ones. I’ve seen plenty worst then that. Also might i suggest you read the comments on that article on the N4G.com site and focus on a user name “Inception”. He is totally off base about women (and yes that’s me replying to him). I’m sure he’s not as bad because he didn’t call me a Feminazi cause of my reply (but he assumed i’m a guy since he called me “Bro”). But you’ll see how truly uneducated sum guys are about women’s rights. Though as you can see, sum other users are a lost cost saying “women shouldn’t bitch and we should get over it”. Those people are lost and unreasonable already so i didn’t both replying to them. Cause really they’re trolls and their opinions don’t really matter.
Mirasiel: Yes that is me.
If what you said is true about X-23 its totally dumb what Marvel did. I don’t know what’s the appeal to her. How can she beat Wolverine? A guy whose been around for almost a century and has been a soldier and i’m sure has more fighting experience then her.
Ya know, i want females to be tough, but to be tough for the sake of toughness isn’t good either. Being tough doesn’t automatically mean you need to be overpowered really just because she’s a girl. Anyway, that’s just another topic i’m not going to get into now.
But yea, i suggest you put N4G.com as one of the most misogynistic gaming sites next to Destructoid.
Better tactics, psychology and the fact she is lighter and faster than him..was how she won, akido style, using the opponents own strength against them.
She was probably as well trained as him given she was a continuation of the weapon X program that made him and they really took the ‘spartan’ training approach starting from age 7, out assasinating from 10 I think.
She doesnt have a full adamantium skeleton, its just the claws, which in-universe should mean her healing ability is much better than wolverines (A lot of it is used stopping him not dying from metal poisoning) which supposedly is where a lot of his strength and endurance comes from.
She was a very..emotionally damaged character..that appealed to me at the time.
/comic geek mode disable.
> I have to say, if my sovereign was doing bikini shoots on some weird seashell set piece, it would make me question her judgment.
I have an actual real-world sovereign – Queen Elizabeth II. If she was doing bikini shoots anywhere at all, I would question which reality I had ended up in, and hope that the psychiatrists could help me soon.